I'd like the detailed instructions for valve adjustment. I've done shim over bucket engines but want to know of any special disassembly/assembly instructions for the cam removal required to adjust the shim under bucket valves on the 599 (2006 model).

A job for Steve! :D
I'd first start with the Shop Manual, like Ragu, it's in there. And one quick thing, the guy at the local Honda place told me unless there is a compelling reason to do so, don't bother. He has cracked a bunch of these motors apart to do the adjustment and only had a handful that were even marginally in need of adjustment. That said, like all maintenance, it comes down to a piece of mind thing to know something isn't wrong...just his input.

My new Honda is the first shim under bucket system I've had. My last bike had rocker arms with adjusting screws on it. This made the job a little easier because the cams could stay in the bike, but they needed adjusting more often 8K miles.

I think Pursiut already knows how to do most of the stuff that I know (probably more), so for anything more detailed a shop manual would be the way to go.

When I get to 16K i'll rip my bike appart and make a video, but untill then, it's too much of a PITA. A better idea would be to get Pursiut to take lots of pictures and make a write him himself! Would you do that for us?

Okay, short version:

1) remove the seat
2) remove the tank
3) remove the spark plug leads
4) remove the valve cover (top the engine)
5) look at the cams... start to cry inside
6) start to check your valve clearances using your feeler gauge set
7) loosen off the slack on the cam chain
8) double check your timing marks
9) gently remove both of your cams being sure to mark both the direction, timing marks, and the intake/exhaust
10) start to cry again
11) Mark every individual bucket
12) remove the buckets of the valves that did not meet spec
13) remove the shims that did not meet spec
14) go to a Honda dealership and ask for the shims to make up the difference (there is a shim guide in the workshop manual)
15) install the new shims in the correct spots. IF YOU GET THIS MIXED UP, YOU WILL BE IN YOUR OWN PERSONAL HELL. DO NOT MIX UP THE SHIMS!
16) resinstall the cams and cam chain (paying attention to the timing marks.
17) rotate the engine 4 times using the bolt on the side of the crankshaft under the inspection cover
18) double check your valve clearances

repeat steps 5 to 18 until all the valves are in spec.

Bolt the cover back on, reinstall the tank seat, and side panels. Go to sleep.


Let your dealer take care of this one, it's not worth it at home unless you've got training.

My short version:

1) Take to dealer.

My short version:

1) Take to dealer.

2) Enjoy the extra performance due to lighter wallet.

:lol:

Okay, short version:

1) remove the seat
2) remove the tank
3) remove the spark plug leads
4) remove the valve cover (top the engine)
5) look at the cams... start to cry inside
6) start to check your valve clearances using your feeler gauge set
7) loosen off the slack on the cam chain
8) double check your timing marks
9) gently remove both of your cams being sure to mark both the direction, timing marks, and the intake/exhaust
10) start to cry again
11) Mark every individual bucket
12) remove the buckets of the valves that did not meet spec
13) remove the shims that did not meet spec
14) go to a Honda dealership and ask for the shims to make up the difference (there is a shim guide in the workshop manual)
15) install the new shims in the correct spots. IF YOU GET THIS MIXED UP, YOU WILL BE IN YOUR OWN PERSONAL HELL. DO NOT MIX UP THE SHIMS!
16) resinstall the cams and cam chain (paying attention to the timing marks.
17) rotate the engine 4 times using the bolt on the side of the crankshaft under the inspection cover
18) double check your valve clearances

repeat steps 5 to 18 until all the valves are in spec.


... and here I was thinking this might be difficult....

All those steps are for adjusting the valves.

At the first interval they are to be inspected. For that you do not need to remove the cams. Simply remove the valve covers and check them.

As with the 599 every 919 I know of has been well within spec at 16,000 and did not need to be adjusted.

All those steps are for adjusting the valves.

At the first interval they are to be inspected. For that you do not need to remove the cams. Simply remove the valve covers and check them.

As with the 599 every 919 I know of has been well within spec at 16,000 and did not need to be adjusted.

Steps 1 through 6 are how to check.

Do you work for a dealership?

No, i'm just a dork. :D

Including myself that makes at least two dorks.

The think to think about when talking about the dealer is that it's not as much to get the valves checked as it "could" be. We have no plastic to remove. In fact, the labor to check the valves should be minimal. However, if a dealer wants to try to bone you for an "adjustment" then I would have them show me the valve that's out of clearance.

My buddy is a Honda maintenance shop supervisor and he said that the worst for valve adjustments is the VFR and the best is the Gold Wing because the heads just hang out there and are easy to get to. He did say that it's very rare that a shim under bucket engine needs any sort of adjustment.

He told me with the riding I do that I should let it go until 20K and he'll check em then. If they are good to go, he said he would have NO problem letting them go for another 30K after that.

The think to think about when talking about the dealer is that it's not as much to get the valves checked as it "could" be. We have no plastic to remove. In fact, the labor to check the valves should be minimal. However, if a dealer wants to try to bone you for an "adjustment" then I would have them show me the valve that's out of clearance.


How does the mechanic show you that they were out of adjustment?

walk you back into the shop show you the feeler gauge and insert it :thumbsup of course ude either have to be there waiting for it or they would need to call you and wait for you to get there and that probably wont happen

I have a standing rule. While I am no master mechanic, if a mechanic cannot show me the defective part or symptoms thereof, then I ain't paying. Just recently I had a mechanic show me a bad ball joint on my truck. When I asked them to show me the bad wheel bearing that they diagnosed, they backpedaled, saying "well, you can feel a little play but upon a second inspection, it might be normal." It was...both front wheels have had a bit of play, very little and it was that way when new.

Yes, they better be able to show me where one is out of adjustment..unless you have a mechanic you trust.

:oops:

I have a standing rule. While I am no master mechanic, if a mechanic cannot show me the defective part or symptoms thereof, then I ain't paying. Just recently I had a mechanic show me a bad ball joint on my truck. When I asked them to show me the bad wheel bearing that they diagnosed, they backpedaled, saying "well, you can feel a little play but upon a second inspection, it might be normal." It was...both front wheels have had a bit of play, very little and it was that way when new.

Yes, they better be able to show me where one is out of adjustment..unless you have a mechanic you trust.

So you're going to have them pull the bike apart, take the top off the engine, check all the valves... if they find one (out of 16) out of adjustment they are to stop all work and call you in. Then they'll have to wait for you to get there so they can show you that the feeler gauge doesn't have enough resistance when you pull on it.

Yeah....

Don't ever come to my shop for a valve check.

Let me get this straight. We're talking about the difference between 90 bucks labor and 300+ bucks labor AND parts...and you are not willing to show me, the customer, what I am paying for? Rather, I am just supposed to "trust" a stealership to tell me "oh, geesh, your valves are out of tolerance and we have to shim 'em."

Listen, when I was in the military I had to take my vehicle into mechanics I didn't know because of a lack of tools to fix a problem myself. In every case in the course of replacing a muffler or something they always "found" something else wrong. I had a mechanic cut the CV joint boots on my Datsun. I had another loosen the bolts in my oil pan. I had yet another show me a dirty air filter off of another car, showing me I needed a new one. Of course, in every case, if not for my completely ANAL way of keeping track of this sort of thing, my money would have been long gone.

As far as motorcycles go, I took my 79 Hondamatic in for a tire replacement and the dealership actually STOLE parts off of it. I found the bike had lower power, almost like the timing at low RPM was off. I pulled the stator cover and crossed the numbers. Yup, they took the Hondamatic stator off and replaced it with a manual transmission stator. The parts were different and the Hondamatics were hard to come by. Couldn't prove that one and they denied it, but I knew every inch of that bike and knew the stator was original..well, it was.

If you were offended, I am sorry, but you should understand it from the customer's end. It's our money. We're the ones paying you. Verifying we're getting what we're paying for isn't too much to ask, is it? Especially when the stealerships as a rule haven't given us too much reason to trust them.

Perhaps you misunderstand exactly how to do a valve check.

Yes, it is a fairly quick check, but at the same time. Unless you know what you're supposed to feel then I could just as easily say, "all of your valves are out of whack, and need to be reshimmed."

This isn't something that you can just "show someone" it's a trained skill.

Now, it's perfectly possible for me to say, "you've got two valves that are loose by .002 inches what do you want me to do?" You'll say, "show me." And I'll show you. Then you'll say, "how do I know they're loose?" And I'll say, "because I told you they are."

Sadly some things you just need to trust.

And there's no "parts" in a valve adjustment. The old shims are traded for new ones and can be reused in a different bike to adjust a different bike. So basically it comes down to the mechanics time that you're paying for.

I can check the valves myself, no worries. Been doing it for years. But if they do require adjustment, I will leave that to someone else. Screw type adjusters I can do myself, no sweat. I'll leave the shim adjustment to someone else. I just don't much feel like taking the cams out and all the crap involved. Plus my mechanic, now that I am out of the military, is a family friend AND a Honda master mechanic. So I turn it to him and not give it a second worry.

So do you check clearances, button the bike all back up and then bring it to the mechanic?

LOL

It was asked what we would do if a complete stranger would run our valves. I stated what I would do. You don't agree with that, and that's ok, but the sort of beating I am taking here is bordering on trolling and is disappointing to say the least. I respect your opinions and insights and I would expect mine to be as well.

Because I am now back home and have a buddy that does this sort of thing, I don't do anything except chain, air filter, and oil and oil filter. The rest goes to my buddy who has been a Honda master mechanic for years.

I've got no idea what a "master mechanic" is. But I'll take your word for it that he knows what he's doing. So I think you should go ask him to show you what a loose valve feels like, then maybe you'll understand why it seems silly to bring someone in just to show them the problem.

Look at it this way. You need to find a mechanic or a shop that you trust (you've got that). Because a valve adjustment isn't something that you can show any proof of having done unless you actually stand there and watch him do it. In 10 seconds I could "fake" having done the adjustment, all I need to do is pull a shim out of the shim box and rub a little oil on it so it looks old then give it to you and say "this was .003 inches to thin due to wear of the valve seat, so I replaced it with one that was .005 inches thicker." Then take the shim back, put it in the box and leave it there for the next adjustment.

Alternately I could diagnose 10 bad valves in 20 minutes of work, pull the cams replace the shims with the correct ones, replace the cams, check them, rotate the engine through, check them again, bolt everything together and give it back to you in a little under two hours. Now... if you want to come down and see all the bad valves. You're going to get charge for an extra 20 minutes to get the bike off the bench and stored away. You're going to get charged for over an hour to teach you the "feel" for checking valves. Then you're going to get charged for another 30 minutes while I show you all the bad valves. THEN, and only THEN do I get to pull it apart.

That's what I'm getting at here, you're saving money just finding someone you can trust.

Personally the policy at my shop, and my personal policy is that any time a wear component is replaced the old component is given back to the customer and he's shown what was wrong with it. If it's a wheel bearing you get to see what was wrong and you can keep the part if you want it, otherwise it goes in the garbage or recycle... but some things you just need to take on faith.




Alternately if you were a friend or acquaintance and I were doing some work for you out of my house I would have NO problem with you sitting there and watching me do the work. Turn up the music, break out a beer, or make some coffee... I'll talk you through what I'm doing, explain how it's done and show you how to do it yourself next time... but I don't charge shop hours either, it's usually a favor to a friend.

A master mechanic is someone that runs the service area at a reputable Honda motorcycle dealership and has worked on motorcycles for 22 years.

A disreputable mechanic will not go through any effort to outsmart the customer as they believe the customer is stupid enough to go "duh, ok" and in most cases, they are right. The goal is to get paid without having to take the engine apart. Someone is not going to take the engine apart and jack it up as there is no money in it. But if they can just say over the phone "hey, the valves are out of tolerance and need to be adjusted, gimme another 200-400 bucks), some will do it. I didn't say you, and I didn't even say most, but I did say some.

By asking to see the issue, you will cause enough concern for the mechanic that, in most cases, they will perhaps pull back a little bit.

It was asked if I would check them myself rather than have a stranger do it. Absolutely. If I didn't have my friend, who is a Honda service manager, to work on my bike, I would do it myself. We are all products of our experience and my experience is that some mechanics will do what they gotta do to get paid, and if that includes charging for stuff that doesn't need done, yes it can happen because it has happened to me in the past.

Service managers are rarely trained mechanics.


Like I said, you need to find a mechanic/shop you can trust.

<<< ASE master certified and L1 advanced engine performance certified .... but being in the feild for 15 years I can tell you those certs dont mean di*k cuzz anone can take those tests and pass them if they study the right crap... I take them cuzz it makes me worth more money but nothing can beat hands on experience if you ask me.

Who's gonna mop up all this piss? :lol:

For real - calm down, there is nothing to prove. troyohchatter has a valid point. All this "my opinion is more valid than yours" is getting trying.

<<< ASE master certified and L1 advanced engine performance certified .... but being in the feild for 15 years I can tell you those certs dont mean di*k cuzz anone can take those tests and pass them if they study the right crap... I take them cuzz it makes me worth more money but nothing can beat hands on experience if you ask me.Agree 100%. No substitute for experience.

Who's gonna mop up all this piss? :lol:

For real - calm down, there is nothing to prove. troyohchatter has a valid point. All this "my opinion is more valid than yours" is getting trying.

Hehehe

Best thing to do is get a old bike and practice. I am not a motorcycle mechanic but i learned by getting a manual and just following the directions. If you can change and gap a spark plug you can check and adjust your valves. Just be patient and have a pot of coffee on and pack a bowl. 8)

Yeah,it's just that easy!

Yeah I understand both sides of this one. But if you want the mechanic to show you valves that are out of adjustment, that's the kind of thing you will have to work out before the job starts. If the dealer doesn't like your terms, you can take the bike somewhere else. I think that your request would be considered uncommon, but not altogether unrealistic.

The problem with showing a valve that is out of adjustment is the amount of work it takes to get to that part. Most shops would not call the customer about their scheduled valve adjustment until the adjustment is already done, at which point the engine is already buttoned back up. So it's one of those situations where a little communication with the shop ahead of time will go a long way.

I am not looking forward to changing shims on my 919 someday. So I like hearing that most people's valves don't need adjustment at the first 16,000 mile check. This reminds me of the VFR forums. Those bikes also have 16,000 mile intervals, but several owners report checking them on time and having nothing out of adjustment after 50,000 miles. The benefit to me is that I can check the valves myself, and as long as they are in spec, I can put everything back together and congratulate myself on the money saved :)

^^^^ This thread was three years old.


:?

^^^^ This thread was three years old.

It's ALIVE, baby! :woohoo

This reminds me of the VFR forums. Those bikes also have 16,000 mile intervals, but several owners report checking them on time and having nothing out of adjustment after 50,000 miles.

FWIW, the reason they do this on the 2002-2009 models is because it costs a wheelbarrow-full of cash to have a dealer check the adjustment on the VTEC system. Once you get through the plastic and to the engine and valves - you check the clearance, button things back together, fiddle with the VTEC lifters, and then check half the valves again. I hear it's a real pain.

The cost is somewhat of an urban legend now, but I've heard anywhere from $400 to over $1000. If I have it done, it will definitely not be until at least 32K. Help me, MazdaMike! :mrgreen:

It's ALIVE, baby! :woohoo



FWIW, the reason they do this on the 2002-2009 models is because it costs a wheelbarrow-full of cash to have a dealer check the adjustment on the VTEC system. Once you get through the plastic and to the engine and valves - you check the clearance, button things back together, fiddle with the VTEC lifters, and then check half the valves again. I hear it's a real pain.

The cost is somewhat of an urban legend now, but I've heard anywhere from $400 to over $1000. If I have it done, it will definitely not be until at least 32K. Help me, MazdaMike! :mrgreen:


Ah, how wonderfully simple is my 919 :) Comparitively speaking, of course.

It's an interesting resurrection. But just in time. I'm creeping up on 24,000 kilometers (16,000 miles) on my 599, and have been wondering if I ought to get it checked at the end of this season, or ride another season or two.

Mine were fine at 22k. Kinda wished I had saved the money. On the other hand, peace of mind to know it's taken care of. AND now I know my mechanic won't make up a pretend adjustment. At least not this time.

Mine were fine at 22k. Kinda wished I had saved the money. On the other hand, peace of mind to know it's taken care of. AND now I know my mechanic won't make up a pretend adjustment. At least not this time.

+1 for the peace of mind.

It's easy to feel like it's money wasted if the valves didn't need adjustment. But just think how your conscience would nag at you if you hadn't gotten it checked....

But just think how your conscience would nag at you if you hadn't gotten it checked....

My conscience will keep its f*&%@! mouth shut if it knows what's good for it. :lol2: