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Old 12-11-2013, 07:25 PM   #1
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Default Electric Bike

Not quite there yet, but getting closer.

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Old 12-11-2013, 09:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: Electric Bike

Hmm, pretty cool!
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:13 AM   #3
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Default Re: Electric Bike

I excited by this more than pure electric cars... (Hybrid is the future!)(For now)

Check out the movie "Charged" its a doccumentery about the start of an all electric class for Isle of Man TT.The companies had to hire "real" TT riders who knew the course... They all loved it... kept saying it's the closest to flying... animals that usually cleared the area were all over the course and they were dodging birds! Were amazed they could hear the rubber of the tires on the road and feel every nuance of feedback instead of just the "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" and vibration of the motor.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: Electric Bike

If these come down from ducati prices, I would definitely look at one for around the city.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: Electric Bike

It is the run time that bothers me. Once they can squeeze a few hundred miles out of a charge I would take a hard look at one. The beauty of electric motors is you get 100 percent of the torque instantly, which would make for a thrilling ride.
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: Electric Bike

I kinda like the Zero better than the Brammo
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/motorcycles/
Hey, N2, you live out in the sticks! Electric vehicles are for people who live in cities!
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Electric Bike

Fa sho... why drive a green vehicle if nobody can see you doing it?

I'd love to ride one, the powerband seems like it would be a blast. I love hearing an engine roar or scream, though, which is why I had a slip-on on my bike. It's not part of the experience I'd want to give up.
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Dude. You could say your mom has a dismal power/weight ratio, but I ride her year-round, too.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Electric Bike

The trade-off for the roaring engine would be silence like flying... it was well-described in Charged... which could leave the roar of the engine for the track, or you might be required to add a pleasant chime to make pedestrians aware you exist...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2950001.html
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:16 AM   #9
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or you might be required to add a pleasant chime to make pedestrians aware you exist...
Having no sound is definitely a hazard for rider and traffic alike. Might be fun to sound like George Jetson's briefcase packable space ship car thing.


On second thought... no, no it wouldn't.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:20 PM   #10
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Having no sound is definitely a hazard for rider and traffic alike.
That's the thing about electric bikes i'm not too keen on. As motorcyclists, we're already invisible. With an e-moto, we're now inaudible.

Also, as n2 said, the runtime is an issue. I think "range anxiety" comes into play with a motorcycle even more so than a car. Motorcycles are made for you to feel liberated. With an e-moto that gets a range of 50-something miles on the freeway, it's like you're chained by the shackles of your recharging cord cuz your e-moto is only for riding around in the city not too far from home. I can accept the idea of having a Nissan leaf whose sole purpose is just getting me to and from intra-city destinations, but a $17,000 motorcycle that shares the same limits? EFF that.


With that said, I realize they gotta start somewhere. So yeah, when they can finally make e-motos with a loud, badass motor sound and a few hundred miles per charge, I'll be on board.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:58 PM   #11
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...and a few hundred miles per charge, I'll be on board.
This is the one thing I don't get... how far do standard bikes go on one tank? 100-200? Yeah, maybe a percentage regularly do multi-tank trips but doubt a significant percentage do (with out doing ANY research except Goggling http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/v...ic.php?t=22229 ). Also, I think of this more in terms of an offshoot not a replacement for gas powered bikes.

Just a 100-120 mile range would allow me a afternoon of fun or pure confidence going back and forth to work (call it 20miles each way)... and of course never really going straight to either.

Think the smaller bike batteries also allow a decent charge "top off" in the time it takes to grab a bite. More of an issue is (same for cars) where do you recharge these things out and about if you aren't in some trendy CA city? We have a few places scattered around town here but seems an unrealistic goal to regularly either have one near by when you need it or for it to be free (generally some regular car parked there annoyed that the space is generally unused). Guess at work I cold just plug it in but would feel a little sketchy just plugging in some place not mine unless invited.

So, don't think it's range anxiety as much as charge anxiety. Yeah, that is a thin hair to split eh?
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:30 PM   #12
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This is the one thing I don't get... how far do standard bikes go on one tank? 100-200? Yeah, maybe a percentage regularly do multi-tank trips but doubt a significant percentage do...

Also, I think of this more in terms of an offshoot not a replacement for gas powered bikes.
Even if you don't regularly do multi-tank trips, your gas-powered bike has the ability to do so when you want or need it to. When you go on a long ride through the mountains, you're not worried about the inability to refuel/recharge your vehicle for the ride home. With electric, however, your ride/travel/journey is explicitly limited to and must revolve around how much charge you have in your battery, and how much accelerating you'd like to do.

The average commuter does 40 miles per day in a car or something like that. That's totally fine if you only intend use an E-Moto for commuting then, but $17,000 is mighty expensive for an offshoot errand-running bike for the city that can't really do much else.



Quote:
So, don't think it's range anxiety as much as charge anxiety. Yeah, that is a thin hair to split eh?
I think it is about range anxiety. Even if you had a place to charge your bike up in the mountains, you'd still be stuck there for hours waiting until you had enough juice to get home.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:24 PM   #13
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When you go on a long ride through the mountains...
Wouldn't take an electric bike for a "long ride through the mountains" anymore than F6B to the trails or a Corvette to get plywood.... So find the way you've raised this point to feel a bit manufactured for argument's sake. But fair enough, it's not for you.

The ultimate point you raise is a good one: would need to plan rides.

Okay, but we already do this. Those with just a motorcycle or multiple vehicle options consider the weather and other factors then adjust vehicle and/or kit to suit: 85 and sunny take bike and mesh jacket, 40 and rain take car and umbrella, need to pick up a tux and cake after work... take the SUV no it's almost out of gas and I'm already late to work – take the scooter (the tux was fine but the topbox shakes too much for the cake... or pudding as it was... and still contend that it tasted EXACTLY THE SAME). Imagine on days when one was going out with no destination or whatever long ride through the mountains (you lucky), just opt to take the most appropriate ride. Personally don't find this burdensome.

Though if I did go for a long ride in the mountains with an all electric bike (it'd be a long ride indeed for me!), I'd make sure I only went up hill... when it ran out of juice, coast down hill to home Maybe even get enough regen out of it to actually make it with some charge in the tank!

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but $17,000 is mighty expensive for...

That's expensive for anything not a necessity. But still cheaper than the F6B you mused about getting for cross country!

So again, this seems a disingenuous point to raise. It's low volume, bleeding edge tech for those who can afford not those who want. Price will come down if it catches on, we've BTDT. It's 2-3x for what a similar gas version should cost, on par with electric cars so inline with what the market makers think. Anyway, after acquisition, price is out of the equation, and Elon would bury you in a pile of spread sheets showing you he's actually somehow PAYING you to take the vehicle off his hands after gas is factored in.

So it doesn't' fit your life style or mode of thinking, that's understandable as nothing is for everyone. In all honesty, only having the range of one 599 tank (~100-120mi as I recall) would be a scary prospect for a solo vehicle but it would cover 90% (or more in all reality) of trips I take and yes can see it leading to some situations where concessions need to be made. No it wouldn't cover all trips of a gas bike but to the first point you raised, it for sure would cover 99.98% of the electric bike trips I'd take. About on par with me running out of gas on a regular bike and think I'd find a way to have enough fun with the direct drive feel and smooth almost noiseless power plant to make up for the inconveniences (and takes nothing really but time to recharge)
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:56 PM   #14
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Wouldn't take an electric bike for a "long ride through the mountains" anymore than F6B to the trails or a Corvette to get plywood.... So find the way you've raised this point to feel a bit manufactured for argument's sake. But fair enough, it's not for you.
What? No, this is not a point manufactured for argument's sake. The Brammo Empulse R is quite obviously a performance-oriented motorcycle. And where are performance bikes intended to be ridden? And by long ride, I basically meant a typical ride anyone would go on through the twisties on a weekend, which the Brammo's claimed 77-mile (city/hwy combined) range would be very suspect for. MotoUSA says that "real-world runs of 50-70 mile commutes seem more reasonable."


Quote:
The ultimate point you raise is a good one: would need to plan rides

Okay, but we already do this.
Obviously, but you have to plan your entire day - not just your ride - around the fact that you need to make sure your bike has enough charge to get you home. I understand your whole argument against my criticism of this bike is that of relativity. Yes, it's all relative. If you want a sporty bike for riding around town/commuting and not much else, then a $17,000* electric-powered street fighter/naked/standard might just be for you.

*EDIT: The Empulse R retails for $19,000.


Quote:
That's expensive for anything not a necessity. But still cheaper than the F6B you mused about getting for cross country!

So again, this seems a disingenuous point to raise. It's low volume, bleeding edge tech for those who can afford not those who want.
Again, it's clearly a discussion of relativity, as whether or not anything is a necessity can be argued. I get that the Brammo Empulse R is a niche bike, and that as a whole, Americans see motorcycles as toys anyways, but I don't see how the concern for the price of admission for a performance-oriented electric bike's limited range is in any way disingenuous.

Also, just because something is expensive and impractical means it's immune to criticism? I'm not anti-electric bikes, I just think that this particular Brammo's value is questionable. Yes, an F6B costs more, but it can go exponentially further in one day than this thing can... as can EVERY gas-powered bike in the world, even the ones that cost exponentially less.

My point is that until they can increase the range on electric motorcycles and/or lower the exorbitant price/cost, their appeal will be very limited.
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Old 12-27-2013, 09:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Electric Bike

Now THIS is more like it!




The Zero SR has more than twice the torque of the Brammo, and more than 10 hp over it as well. It also has a greater range than the Brammo, with 137 miles city, and 85 miles fwy at 55 mph, or 70 miles at 70mph... for thousands less than the Empulse R. The base-model Zero S with a the smallest battery starts at $13k. There's also an optional "power pack" that adds like 40 miles to the range or something like that (and 40 lbs).

I'm definitely all about the maintenance-free powertrain and "fuel" efficiency, but the prices are just waaaay too steep at this point. A commuter bike shouldn't cost you thousands of dollars more than what you'd pay for an Italian V4 Superbike. And again, the silent factor is a negative in my eyes - especially for a bike that's going to spend the vast majority of its time in traffic.
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Old 12-28-2013, 10:36 AM   #16
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Default Re: Electric Bike

Zero S and Empulse R comparison: http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31...-specs-photos/





The big win for Zero here, though, is range. In “normal” use, half surface streets and half freeway cruising in the 70-mph range, the Zero made 60 miles with 15 percent charge remaining. As energy reserves got down to 25 percent, top speed began to be limited, and by that 15 percent, the Zero would only go 40 mph. The Brammo, meanwhile, never seemed to cut power even when showing just 3 percent charge remaining, but its range tended to be more like 40–45 miles in the same mixed riding. Perhaps the best information we can give you regarding range is this: On an identical 34-mile ride, the Zero’s gauge showed 37 percent of its charge left versus the Brammo’s 18 percent.


Although I still think the range is pretty lousy, it's a big improvement over previous generations, so the future looks promising. However, the present leaves a lot to be desired, but as I said before, you gotta start somewhere.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Electric Bike

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Yes, an F6B costs more, but it can go exponentially further in one day than this thing can...
"Long range riding" is at the top of the white board for the premier Gold Wing (and why it has a 6.5 gallon tank). This is what it is designed to do, no surprises that it does it. And those who can afford will gladly pay if they want one.

Let's see how far it can go on just the battery though!

So still seems like trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. As it is today, the square electric motorcycle doesn't fit a certain round style of riding. But if long spontaneous rides through the mountains it isn't a manufactured point to dismiss electric motorcycles, then your confusing with such wide generalizations...

Commuter = no desire for a sporty bike
Mountains = where to ride
Everyone = 100's of miles/outing
BMW = dick driver (redundant )

A run for your money with: Sport bike = dick rider
(obviously not true in any broad sense)

The attitude that in order for an electric motorcycle to be worthy it must get "a few hundred miles" per charge doesn't generally make much sense, given driver usage data. Guess they could make it go longer tomorrow but queue complaining that it's too heavy/not sporty (enough) or even more expensive... Carrying around extra capacity the majority of the time to cover a low % of trips that could easy be offloaded to another vehicle, or planned away, isn't a good design principle for electric vehicles.

It's a new tool for a new way to approach the same old problem of getting around while enjoying oneself. Unconvinced that "long" range matters much for this type of vehicle. New tech is new tech and to discount it because of inherent characteristics seems a bit silly.

Well at least we both agree it's not for everyone, is expensive but is exciting and can see the concept is expanding with every new iteration and MFGR joining.

Peace and ride safe
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:25 AM   #18
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So still seems like trying to jam a square peg into a round hole...
Ok, fine. But my point was that rather than be content with a square peg that will only ever fit into a square hole, we should look forward to pegs in the future that will eventually be able to fit various holes. Or some kind of orifice...


Quote:
The attitude that in order for an electric motorcycle to be worthy it must get "a few hundred miles" per charge doesn't generally make much sense, given driver usage data.
I think the difference is driver(automobile) data vs rider data. Out of 120 million commuters here in the US, only about 0.12% ride motorcycles to work on a regular basis. Soo, it's probably safe to say that for the average American rider, motorcycles are for recreation. I just don't see many motorcyclists trading in their gas-bikes in favor of a limited-range e-bike, and they're way too expensive for the avg rider to buy as a secondary bike just for commuting.

But ok, as far as the Empulse R is concerned, I understand that it's a luxury item. I get it. It's not intended for middle-class Joe Schmoe Biker. So for the rich guy who wants one, great. I agree, it's a cool hi-tech bike for whoever can afford it and for what it can do for the amount of time its charge lasts.



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Originally Posted by carlitos_92 View Post
Basically, regardless of its performance potential and looks, I think the Brammo is a commuter bike based on its range. Period. Its "mission" isn't relative to its performance envelope or style or riding position or any of that. It simply is a bike to do a 30-mile commute each day (or VERY short sport ride) and be recharged.
Well, here's the thing... The Brammo Empulse R is intended to be a performance bike and is marketed as such, so I think it's perfectly reasonable to dock points from its scorecard due to its shortcomings.

Case in point:




I know that Brammo isn't aiming the Empulse at the same audience as the CB500F, but if we're all going to agree that the Empulse's range limits it to being a commuter, then I think this is a fair comparison just to put things in perspective:

- Obviously the Empulse destroys the CB500F when it comes to torque that is immediately available, but both do 0-60mph in approx. five seconds.
- Empulse top speed: 105 mph, CB500F top speed: 115 mph
- The cost of gas and oil changes will add to the overall cost of ownership of the CB500F, but its MSRP is only $5,800 and it gets over 70mpg. Plus, the used market is much more abundant for a bike like the CB500F

However, despite the value disparity, if you want to get an E-bike so you can give a big EFF YOU to the oil companies, that's totally understandable.



Quote:
Sure, their appeal is limited, as it is destined to be for some time. I don't think these battery bikes will ever be the COMPLETE future, but they are guaranteed to be the partial future, and if these little stepping stones help improve them for when they go balls-out mainstream, I think that's okay.
As I said before, I realize that they gotta start somewhere with the development of e-bikes, so it's not like I'm scoffing at the idea or anything. I'm just saying that I think it will be really interesting and more compelling when the technology gets to a point where companies like Honda (or anybody else, I suppose) can start producing affordable, extended-range e-bikes.
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:00 AM   #19
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Default Re: Electric Bike

This is pretty informative:





and a comparison vid:

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Old 01-04-2014, 12:34 PM   #20
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Well, mis-marketing might be their problem, but you're still using the wrong scorecard.

In other words, Sudafed may be marketed as a decongestant, but you can't dock points for it not working on your sinuses if you smoke crystal meth made with it.
It's not just mis-marketing, the Empulse R is engineered to be an electric naked sport bike. It just so happens that the technology available can only offer a limited range at this point in time. Thus, it's not a commuter bike by design, but by default. In my book, this hurts its rating. I'm not saying that makes the Empulse worthless, just worth less.

I think it's more like docking Sudafed for only improving your sinuses in one nostril... for one hour.

Brammo makes the much less expensive Enertia, which is their 'actual' commuter bike. I'm perfectly fine with that bike's limited 80 mile city range, because that bike is not designed to be anything but a commuter, and is priced accordingly.
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